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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>Muckable Pitfall - Meta · project-safe-transmute · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/index.html">project-safe-transmute</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html">Muckable Pitfall - Meta</a></h3>

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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218332635" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> rpjohnst <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218332635">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>What I don't understand is that the lang-team already came back with "let's not use <code>Here!()</code>." You seem to have assumed they meant <em>just</em> the literal <code>Here!()</code> macro instead of the <code>Scope</code> mechanism that <code>Here!()</code> was shorthand for in that discussion. Boats suggested the newtype pattern as one alternative idiom already in use to <em>justify</em> the idea of putting off solving that problem until we can do it directly and generally- and now I point to that exchange as one reason I believe they meant the entire <code>Scope</code> mechanism. Frankly I cannot believe we have to get this nitpicky!</p>
<p>I see Josh has been trying to figure out if there's a way to lower the impact of <code>Scope</code>, because a future direct+general solution might obsolete it (thus "<em>might/</em>should"). I'm asking for <em>specific examples</em> that you believe can't be accomplished (well) without it, because I would like to understand the <em>problem space</em> better (another lesson we're trying to learn from earlier discussion). But all you're giving me is rephrased versions of things we've already discussed.</p>
<p>This "create several topics" thing is coming across to me as very disingenuous, fire-and-motion type tactics. :/ I'm not just repeating myself to try to "win" an argument! I'm repeating myself because I am very thoroughly confused as to what on earth is going on here. I don't understand why we're still talking about <code>Scope</code> and every time I ask you give me the runaround.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218333202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218333202">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>The past discussions of <code>Muckable</code>'s shortcomings <em>did</em> include specific scenarios. Those discussions are <em>very</em> long, so I'm hoping that summarizing them with distinct topics makes the problem space more approachable to people who are intimidated by scrolling through "Muckable Shortcomings".</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218333476" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218333476">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I hear Boat's objection <em>loud and clear</em>. I'm not unclear on their feelings.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218333753" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218333753">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>Josh and Scott <em>also</em> expressed <a href="#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/.60Muckable.60.20Shortcomings/near/217187893">*some* openness</a> to a design that includes <code>Scope</code>.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218333911" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218333911">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>So, I'm going to do my best to:</p>
<ul>
<li>demonstrate that the approaches are complementary</li>
<li>document the situations where a scope-aware foundational API solves problems that the <code>Muckable</code> approach doesn't.</li>
</ul>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218333955" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218333955">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>If you slowed your responses a bit, it might feel less fire-and-motion. :/</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218334136" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> rpjohnst <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218334136">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>Right, and I'm not trying to forbid <code>Scope</code> by fiat either. I am open to it being the least bad option. But I'm asking for specific examples (which were not to be found in any discussion you linked when I first asked) of <em>why you are still trying to make <code>Scope</code> work</em>. Do you have any? Or are you sticking to <code>Scope</code> based on general concerns that {newtype boilerplate is too error-prone, muckable requires too much upstream cooperation, etc}?</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218334252" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218334252">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>I believe so: The two next topics I'm going to summarize are partial visibility and language-level layout (in)stability.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218334476" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> rpjohnst <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218334476">(Nov 30 2020 at 19:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would have appreciated you mentioning those up front- having an overall summary of the space after lots of discussion is great, but as a response to "hey do you have some examples I could think about" it feels very frustrating. :)</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable%20Pitfall%20-%20Meta/near/218339206" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jack Wrenn <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/216762-project-safe-transmute/topic/Muckable.20Pitfall.20-.20Meta.html#218339206">(Nov 30 2020 at 20:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well, I just lost power and even LTE is intermittent, so I'll have to pause this review.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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